tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post5512494400800926711..comments2024-03-05T01:05:37.027-08:00Comments on IN THE NEWS: Killing and culpability: A reader participation exerciseKaren Franklin, Ph.D.http://www.blogger.com/profile/01032855743077403199noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-3638304996575019612020-06-22T19:19:47.430-07:002020-06-22T19:19:47.430-07:00after researching this there was much more to thi...after researching this there was much more to this than on the blog.there was no revenge, the man was reported by several people and nothing was done, he was stalking people, another victim committed suicide 3 years before, he was offering to babysit this mans infant daughter and there was a conversation with close friends/family members that day about him molesting many people and he was still seeking others and it would take more than a short blog post to describe half of everything how it all unfolded, but hey when the law fails to investigate after multiple complaints from different people and the person refuses to stop harassing people and is actively seeking others and one knows of a lot more than 10 other victims and all these other things mentioned ahead of time you might wonder when it will stop, knowing every person after yourself is because no one has ever done anything. so ask yourself what can you live with in life and what can you not live with? no it was not premeditated or there would not have been a conversation, similar to several like it over the years. for peoples real knowledge most people in prison for such a crime is and was a one time act in a situation no one can understand unless you lived it and prison makes things worse for most people. yes i this man needs counseling, probably always will and behind bars is not a place where it is easy to come by decent counselors, but a person may develop a lot of other issues. reading things and living them is very different. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-18639210308326424612010-07-23T09:05:50.253-07:002010-07-23T09:05:50.253-07:00This is an excellent post. Sorry I'm so late t...This is an excellent post. Sorry I'm so late to the party, but I'm going to throw my two cents into the ring anyway.<br /><br />Case 1: Death by knife. Not guilty. This is clearly self-defense, pure and simple. The 'duty to retreat' does not exist for me, and that's the way I'd vote. I decided the case in my initial reading of the description and further information did not change my mind. Not guilty.<br /><br />Case 2: Death by .44 pistol. Initially I was unsure just how I would vote and so withheld my judgment until the sanity of the shooter was established and the motive for the shooting was discovered. This is murder in the first degree, however there are extenuating circumstances. There are no winners in this one, but I would vote not guilty. Some people just need killing.Mad Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06190137186843630543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-23468928059082766882010-05-02T18:02:34.423-07:002010-05-02T18:02:34.423-07:00There seems to be enough evidence in the Vargas ca...There seems to be enough evidence in the Vargas case against the "victim" McNeill that the DA thinks it is manslaughter, and even his family seems to believe it, oh thats right most of them were victims, who had reported it to the police for years. There were also photos of him with children. This case is not black and white.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-65066409608728428462010-04-27T20:28:56.143-07:002010-04-27T20:28:56.143-07:00My problem with the type of comments posted above ...My problem with the type of comments posted above is the following: the victim is no longer here to testify in his own defense. This allows people to make up whatever "facts" they want knowing that the accused is not here to testify. You can argue that where there's smoke there's fire, but the devil in many of these cases is in the details. I always find it very very *convenient* how people come out of the woodwork after someone is killed like this and them say the most horrible things about the victim. <br /><br />One of the reasons I feel so strongly about this is because the courts should be engaged in a search for the truth. People who engage in this type of vigilantism didn't just get revenge on a supposedly very bad man; they undermined the entire system of justice. They prevented the people from *ever* finding out the truth. That crime is the crime that should really shock the conscious. <br /><br />DanielAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-76628212001384883922010-04-23T07:33:16.618-07:002010-04-23T07:33:16.618-07:00"Urbanite" again:
No, Anonymous 4/22/10,..."Urbanite" again:<br />No, Anonymous 4/22/10, it is not a case of self defense. In California, for a killing to be an act of self defense, there must be an immediate threat, and, unless the defense is taking place in one's home, there must be no way to escape from the violence, other than by using potentially lethal force. Vargas went to McNeil's house with a gun. Neither Vargas nor anyone else was under immediate threat at that moment. Therefore, under California law, he had no right to use force of any kind. Ironically, because in California there is no duty to retreat when confronted in one's home, the legal reality is that as soon as McNeil saw that gun, McNeil would have had the right to use lethal force to defend himself against Vargas. Had McNeil shot Vargas, that would have been self defense, prior heinous acts notwithstanding.<br /><br />Take everything said as fact: McNeil perpetrated abuse not only on Vargas, but on others. He threatened Vargas' child. Vargas had PTSD, and suffered from Stockholm Syndrome. The police failed to act.<br /><br />Vargas loaded his gun and went to McNeil's house to confront him. That prima facie evidence of a homicidal state of mind. There has been nothing posted that would suggest that Vargas was not capable of understanding that shooting McNeil would kill him. The crime Vargas committed was first degree murder. (If you're interested, here is the definition of first degree murder in California: http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m053.htm)<br /><br />Again, we have a twisted system of injustice that does not allow cases such as this to be handled fairly. But the fact that the police didn't do their job does not justify an act of vigilante violence, however satisfying, on a gut level, it may be that an abuser was killed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-30369123981069112792010-04-22T16:46:52.540-07:002010-04-22T16:46:52.540-07:00I would like to say that a lot of info and facts w...I would like to say that a lot of info and facts were left out of your little experiment. I would hope you would want to fix it and be true to the facts. Manly the Aaron Vargas case. <br /><br />Thank you,<br /><br />Andrew Lane<br /><br />lane_inc@hotmail.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-35228633750308447592010-04-22T16:28:10.028-07:002010-04-22T16:28:10.028-07:00What you leave out about the Aaron Vargas case is ...What you leave out about the Aaron Vargas case is that Aaron was stalked and harassed up until the day his abuser died. His abuser also asked several times to see and to babysit Vargas' daughter, even bringing over diapers for the baby once. So it's not as if the abuse just ended and then a few years later Vargas decided he wanted revenge. Vargas has PTSD and symptoms of Stockholm Syndrome. Up until 2/8/09 Vargas felt sorry for his abuser and wasn't able to stand up to him in order to protect himself or his child. Also, the abuser was reported to the police several times but they did NOTHING and Vargas knew this. It really is a case of self defense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-3640981572469447182010-04-22T07:39:13.782-07:002010-04-22T07:39:13.782-07:00Anonymous,
Thanks for your insider's perspecti...Anonymous,<br />Thanks for your insider's perspective. If accurate, that sounds a lot like what is alleged in the case of William Ayres, a prominent psychiatrist whose case I have blogged about. (See, for example: http://forensicpsychologist.blogspot.com/2009/08/ayres-exposer-wins-award.html.)Karen Franklin, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01032855743077403199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-27892735557052195532010-04-22T00:58:12.518-07:002010-04-22T00:58:12.518-07:00What is Not Mentioned in the Child rapists' mu...What is Not Mentioned in the Child rapists' murder is that he was reported to the police. (Even by his own children who provided photos of their father harming children) Also phone records show Mr McNeill was calling and stopping by speaking to Mr. Vargas many times and offering to babysit his infant daughter. Some victims committed suicide after Mr. McNeill kept coming back into their lives. Over a dozen young men have come out publicly and also woman. Mr.McNeill was a Boy Scout leader, Big Brother and involved youth pastor in his church. He sought out his victims in these venues. Mr. Vargas did not go to Mr McNeill' home to kill him, but to scare him,and told him he was not going to hurt anyone, anymore, an argument ensued. We will find out in court the exact details of this. Mr. Mcneill had been reported by other victims as well. The local Fort Bragg Police dept. again,never investigated. Mr. McNeill was also a local business owner and had friends in high places. There is more to this story than meets they eye. This is not a "vigilante" killing. Fort Bragg has held many dark secrets of murder, molest, rape and missing people. It does not take much to dig under a few layers and you will see all is not as it appears. It is how much money and power you have in Fort Bragg that really allows you to victimize others for apparently an extremely long time. Some of these reports of abuse were made to the police years before Mr. Vargas was ever a victim of Mr. McNeill. Some believe that if the police would have done their job in the first place Mr. Vargas would have never been a victim, along with others. You see, there is alot to this case, and I have not even touched the surface.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-34758435359543496752010-04-17T09:44:30.887-07:002010-04-17T09:44:30.887-07:00Continued... sorry to be so longwinded.
Final out...Continued... sorry to be so longwinded.<br /><br />Final outcome:<br /><br />(I think you switched the cases here…)<br /><br />Case 1: (Dead frat brat vs. man w/knife in brawl.) Seems pretty obvious that a verdict of “voluntary manslaughter” would be appropriate. The killer was not the only aggressor, but he was the final aggressor. Before sentencing, I would want to know whether he was drunk, whether he was himself injured, and who else was hurt in the melee. He is guilty. In a sane system of justice, he would undergo rehabilitation and perform restitution to the community he injured. In ours, he’ll go to jail for a while, and come out not able to get a job, but still having access to knives and alcohol. Then he can get his second strike… No heroes or villains in this one. Just a bunch of screwed up kids. <br /><br />Case 2: (Revenge killing of ex-molester.) Not manslaughter. First degree murder. Still no heroes. At least one, and probably two villains, depending on whether or not molestation occurred. However much the gut may understand the urge to slaughter ex-molesters, the mind, and the jury, must understand that vigilante murder is not heroic. Or justified. As far as the sentence, though, it seems fair enough. Again, a better sentence would involve rehabilitation and restitution, but within the confines of the crazy California penal system, a 10-year sentence with the possibility of parole is probably about right, even though the actual crime was first degree murder, not manslaughter. It’s not as though our anti-hero is likely to go out and assassinate someone else.<br /><br />As a non-psychologist, I may be missing the forensic psychological issues here. The first case doesn’t seem to have many psychological issues. The issues there are more purely political. The second case certainly would seem to be rich with forensic psychological issues: an abused man kills his ex-tormenter. The killer must have been deeply disturbed. But then that’s evident by the fact that he committed cold blooded murder. But again, the popularity of violent vigilantes and the exaggerated loathing for “sexual predators,” even if they are only young men who had consensual sex with a barely-underage girl, are more political than psychological issues. <br /><br />--"Urbanite"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-75881264596220115972010-04-17T09:43:18.828-07:002010-04-17T09:43:18.828-07:00Interesting exercise.
At the first hard stop:
Ca...Interesting exercise.<br /><br />At the first hard stop:<br /><br />Case 1: From the description of the events, the killer did not exercise his duty to try to flee before using force. Had he run away and been cornered before brandishing his weapon, he could make a good case for self-defense. Given, though, that “insults and challenges were exchanged,” he is not a simple victim of an assault. He may have been intoxicated. Carrying a weapon to a party and then getting drunk or stoned is not evidence of a peaceful pre-event state of mind. The crime committed by the killer here is not heinous. Rather, it is mundane. So far, I’d call it manslaughter.<br /><br />Case 2: Seems to be clear cut first degree murder. There was no present danger. The killer was not in fear of death or grave bodily injury. There is no legal justification for the use of force, particularly deadly force, under those conditions, no matter “past wrongs.” He armed himself and assassinated his enemy in cold blood, as evidenced by lingering for 30 minutes to make sure the decedent was indeed deceased. First degree murder, plain and simple.<br /><br />Second hard stop:<br /><br />Case 1: So what? So the victim was not blameless. We knew that. No change. Manslaughter.<br /><br />Case 2: Apparently, the decedent was not a nice man. He had done bad things. There is still no legal justification to assassinate him. First degree murder. The jury may want to consider the murderer’s state of mind in the sentencing phase, but the crime is murder one.<br /><br />Third hard stop:<br /><br />Case 1: I’m not terribly fond of nuclear engineers in any case. And frat brats often take part in vicious mob activity, from hazing, assault and mayhem to gang rape. But still, the killer exchanged threats and did not try to flee. Manslaughter it remains. Hope the community was able to win its suit against the frat brats. But that’s an entirely separate issue. <br /><br />Case 2: Vigilantes are often popular. Courts and laws are supposed to prevent just this type of mob rule. Murder one it remains. The punishment is a matter to be decided in court, but the case is clearly one of first degree murder, not justifiable homicide. Personally, I’m not a great fan of American penal “justice”. But the fact remains that the killer committed an unjustified, premeditated act of fatal violence. In our mixed up society, the options for his punishment are either a long jail sentence or another killing. I guess long jail sentence wins. <br /> <br />Continued....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-32685184889340894272010-04-16T11:40:23.256-07:002010-04-16T11:40:23.256-07:00Interesting juxtaposition of the two cases, Karen....Interesting juxtaposition of the two cases, Karen.<br /><br />One thought: If it had been a gun rather than a knife in the street fight case, charges probably wouldn't even have been filed in many states, including my own.<br /><br />Matt McMullen<br />Montana State University-BillingsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-5320740164548005212010-04-16T07:16:37.652-07:002010-04-16T07:16:37.652-07:00Dr. Whitehill, Thanks for catching that error in t...Dr. Whitehill, Thanks for catching that error in the case numbers. I've fixed it on the post. <br /><br />And thanks to the rest of you for posting your interesting thoughts.Karen Franklin, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01032855743077403199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-82664613544106418392010-04-15T19:50:19.925-07:002010-04-15T19:50:19.925-07:00My perception of culpability changed only marginal...My perception of culpability changed only marginally. The brawl sounded like self-defense and the vengeance sounded like premeditated murder. I find it incredible that the avenger got off with voluntary manslaughter. I mean, it doesn’t get any more cold blooded and premeditated than that. He got a gun, sought him out, shot him, and WAITED to make sure he was dead. Yes, he too was victimized, but that was several years earlier. He could have reported the man, but he chose a vigilante approach. I can find little sympathy for him.<br />The Berkeley boy, on the other hand, was provoked, threatened, and attacked. Even more telling, and this was the one point that changed my mind somewhat, he only stabbed the frat boy once. This was no killing frenzy; he fought only as long as necessary to protect himself. It is appalling to think that he faces a first-degree murder charge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-73158743391392634262010-04-15T10:04:50.734-07:002010-04-15T10:04:50.734-07:00Karen:
In your description of the actual cases, y...Karen:<br /><br />In your description of the actual cases, you have case #1 listed as case #2 and vice-versa!<br /><br />Mark Whitehill, Ph.D.<br /><br />Also, posting comments on your site is so cumbersome that I bet many would-be commenters are dissuaded from doing so, which is unfortunate, since you address so many interesting issues!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-14581562200419212812010-04-15T09:34:15.595-07:002010-04-15T09:34:15.595-07:00Self defense, acquit, in the death of the drunk fr...Self defense, acquit, in the death of the drunk frat boy. This is a typical case of socioeconomic status influencing the DAs charging decisions. <br /><br />Second case, I am not surprised, because there was a similar case in our town, and the white killer pled guilty to Voluntary, with little or no jail time. Meanwhile, across town, a Hispanic mother who killed her abusive husband who was molesting her children: second deg. murder and prison. Sigh. Forensic psych, 4/15/10Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2361358365193630538.post-81225271889209423372010-04-14T13:22:19.011-07:002010-04-14T13:22:19.011-07:00Excellent. Most Excellent. My initial reaction at ...Excellent. Most Excellent. My initial reaction at the first stoplight was that the second killer was much more guilty than the first because I saw the first case as "self defense" and the second as "premeditated." <br /><br />The second set of data didn't change my thought about how culpable they were but it did change my reaction to how stern I thought the punishment should be. I thought the punishment in the first case should be less stern and the punishment in the second case should be more stern. But that is because I dislike both hubris and witch hunters. In other words, the killer in the first case become more sympathetic to me and the killer in the second case less.<br /><br />The exact opposite of reality, but that's me...<br /><br />DanielAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com